Toby Flood Interview: Borthwick Lacks Charisma & Farrell to Saracens

Exclusive interview with Toby Flood: Steve Borthwick is not a charismatic leader, but I’m not sure there are suitable candidates to replace him, with strong rumours that Andy Farrell will be joining Saracens. Featured image courtesy of Sky Sports.

Ahead of Six Nations Super Saturday, here is a brand new interview with Toby Flood, who has spoken to BettingLounge this week.

As a former England teammate of Steve Borthwick, Flood is well positioned to give his view on the England head coach’s reign, saying that he is not a charismatic leader. He also discussed the ‘strong rumours’ linking Andy Farrell to Saracens, which could prevent the Ireland coach joining England after the 2027 World Cup.

Flood also spoke about Scotland’s chances of keeping their championship hopes alive in Dublin on Saturday, describing how the team is playing for Gregor Townsend and how Fin Russell has compromised with his head coach.

Q: England are going from bad to worse in the Six Nations. What do you think is going wrong? 

TF: “There seems to be a lack of confidence around the side and a lack of willingness to take risks, which has been really interesting. There’s a noticeable lack of appetite - likely not from the players, but from the coaching staff - to move the ball around and put teams under pressure with ball in hand.

We all know Steve Borthwick is very statistically driven: do X, get Y. Rugby can work like that at the international level, where the game is more controlled. However, the boys who play week in, week out in the Premiership achieve far more and push the envelope, exposing themselves to risk for their clubs. In the past three England games, there has been a real lack of that.

Also, England’s previous 12-game winning run was based predominantly at Twickenham, apart from the two-match series in Argentina. That "Fortress Twickenham" mentality surely played a part in that success.”

Q: Will Borthwick and Richard Wigglesworth survive, and what can they do to turn itaround? 

TF: “The RFU didn’t give them a convincing vote of confidence, but with the Bill Sweeneys of this world, you’ve got to hedge your bets. I think they will stay. It would be hard to change now, and the counter-argument is: who replaces them?

Would it be a Scott Robertson or a Michael Cheika coming off the cab rank? I’m not sure there are that many suitable candidates banging down the door. Andy Farrell would be the obvious choice, but rumors are strong that he has signed for Saracens after the World Cup.

If you do change, it always takes a huge amount of time to turn the ship around. The real question is whether Borthwick and Wigglesworth can fix this. To do so, they need to start pushing and pressurizing the opposition with the ball in hand, and I don't think they are doing that.

They are so driven by statistics and outcomes. England were kicking the ball away with two minutes to go. Why?! Steve and Wigglesworth have grown up on that Saracens mantra of kicking the ball, making the opposition work from deep, and putting them under so much pressure that they have to chase the game. The problem is that when England are asked to chase a game, they don't have those components in their arsenal because they've never had to learn them.

They also don’t have a defense that is going to absolutely destroy you, like Saracens did. Teams are finding ways to score against England, which means they are always in a battle at the 40-to-60-minute mark, creating an environment where they can't effectively chase the game.” 

Q: Is Wigglesworth the right man as defense coach?

TF: “Attack is very hard to get right, especially in the international game; you need real confidence in people being in the right positions. Defense is arguably a bit easier, but ultimately you have to have complete buy-in across the team.

There seem to be times when players are making decisions independently of each other. Sometimes they race up hard; sometimes they don't. There's a lack of connectivity, which was probably hurt by the number of changes they made against Italy. You end up with combinations that don't know each other.

You can forgive a sin-bin for a high tackle - it happens in rugby. But when you have Maro Itoje - your captain, a wonderful player, and a phenomenal leader who will go down as an England great - slapping the ball out of the scrum-half’s hand, it gives you an insight into the stress and pressure he is feeling. He has a huge amount of stress in his private life, and you can see that. But when he makes decisions with such large consequences with 10 or 15 minutes to go, it’s hugely insightful as to where England are right now.

A captain has to deal with his own issues while also managing multiple stakeholders within the organization, checking in mentally with players, running team meetings, and doing reviews with the coaches. There is a huge amount of stress placed upon him. It probably shows you where England are when, even within that safety network of leadership, there are too many competing conversations.

That was quite intriguing when Finn Smith kicked the penalty for three points - there were multiple conversations happening on the pitch. That highlights a lack of clarity regarding what should be done in certain situations. You absolutely want to leave decisions to the players, but having multiple people pulling in different directions doesn't inspire confidence in how the team is operating.” 

Q: Do you think there's a lack of oversight from Borthwick and Wigglesworth during matches? 

TF: “It’s a fine art balancing how much power you give to the players versus the coaches, and that is fundamentally difficult.

I stood not too far from the coaches' box at Murrayfield, and there seemed to be very little emotion coming out of it. They appeared to be letting the players make the majority of decisions. That is generally what you want, as the players have the feel, knowledge, and cadence of the game on the pitch. As a coach, you have to trust your players to make the right calls. It is only once or twice in a game where you can come over the top and override a decision. It is an art form, not a science.” 

Q: There are reports Borthwick may have lost the dressing room. Is that your sense? 

TF: “Steve is not the most charismatic of souls. He's not an inspirational leader in terms of what he says; he's a leader in terms of the architecture he puts around the team. Is he going to give a Churchillian speech before a game? No.

Take Scotland after their loss to Italy, for example. The players’ reaction seemed to be based around protecting Gregor Townsend when England came up for the Calcutta Cup, and Scotland have done some remarkable things since.

I’m not sure you get that from the players toward Steve because of his personality. He doesn't scratch the itch of connecting with people on a personal level; he finds that very hard to do. Maybe that plays a role in the dressing room dynamic. You can see why, when relationships are strained and you haven't created a tight bond with the team, those cracks become larger due to a lack of social connection.” 

Q: Do you sense there are splits within the squad itself?

TF: “There have been questions around the leadership group and what they are doing. If you're playing well, you have control, power, and the ability to share information among your peers from a position of ascendancy.

Right now, nobody is really playing well. The Ellis Genges and Maro Itojes - the guys who have been there and done that - are probably questioning their own form, which puts them back in their shells. That’s when a "split" can happen. The younger boys feel they need to stand up and create their own environment. You want that in one sense, but it isn't being secured by the senior players.

When things start creaking, you need strong leadership. People were questioning Andy Farrell not long ago, but he found a response by utilizing the emotive connections he has with his players. When things fall apart and you lack that connection - either peer-to-peer or peer-to-coach - it really starts to show.” 

Q: Are some players living on past reputations while underperforming?

TF: “Every English player will put their hand up and say they are not playing well. That happens during challenging times, but living on reputation isn't something the squad will allow.

The main problem is that the team is struggling to solve an issue it physically cannot solve because of how it has been set up. You can't find a solution when you aren't defending well, you’re kicking the ball away, and you're handing possession straight back to the opposition.” 

Q: Has attack coach Lee Blackett been sidelined due to the close bond between Borthwick and Wigglesworth? 

TF: “It’s hard to know. Borthwick and Wigglesworth trust each other because of their intimate working relationship. However, you would argue that your attack coach - especially given where England are at the moment - should be the most important man in the room.

If you look at the sheer number of coaches they have, it doesn't lend itself to an individual getting the time to put their fingerprint on the team and change the way they attack. Much was made of Lee when he joined regarding the fast and loose rugby his Bath team played. It all goes back to how much he is allowed to implement, and the level of risk permitted by Borthwick’s overarching mantra.” 

Q: How did you rate Fin Smith, and should more be made of Marcus Smith?

TF: “Fin dealt with the pressure of replacing George Ford - who has been a standout performer for the last year - very impressively.

There is a clamor to bring Marcus back, but is he the kind of player you want running the game right now? For me, Fin is a lovely hybrid between George and Marcus. He did enough in that game to keep his position, but the sword of Damocles sits above everybody's head at the moment. After 12 sweeping changes, there still hasn't been a reaction.

You don’t want an England team that goes out set up not to lose, but that’s where they feel they are right now. England must just go and roll the dice. What have they got to lose? Take France on. Scotland managed to.” 

Q: Does a "bomb squad" work for England when their forward power isn't what it was?

TF: “With their current injuries, it is difficult. It worked for a while when England were at full strength, but it doesn't work when you are lacking key individuals.” 

Q: Could Owen Farrell adopt a mentoring role for fly-halves, similar to Johnny Sexton in Ireland?

TF: “I can’t see why not, if it's something he wants to do. Knowing him, he would probably want to coach at club level first.

But you could certainly have him and George Ford vying for a technical assistant role. As far as I'm aware, England don't have a dedicated kicking coach like a Dave Alred right now. So it feels like a natural progression for Owen or George to step in and take control of that area.”

Q: England play France in Paris this weekend to close out their worst-ever Six Nations. How do you see it going?

TF: “It is hard to look past France. There will be a reaction from them after what happened against Scotland, and there needs to be a reaction from England.

For France to concede 50 points is remarkable; I can’t imagine how Shaun Edwards is dealing with that. He'll be in agony! It was a shock for all of us, but Scotland deserved it - that's the beauty of sport. The penultimate game on a Grand Slam run is always the hardest; there are a lot of nerves and anxiety. It was a bit of a free shot for Scotland.

It is unlikely that England win in Paris, but the one team the French won’t want coming to town right now is England. What do England have to lose? They will rip in, and we'll see where they get to. They will want to prove a point. Love it or hate it, this tournament is getting tighter and narrower.” 

Q: How tough is it playing in Paris?

TF: “To be honest, it is not physically intimidating because the pitch is so far from the stands. However, it is intimidating in terms of the noise, the flares, and the fact that the fans will be massively up for it. They're a raucous bunch, and the place will be bouncing before kick-off.” 

Q: France secured a late bonus point at Murrayfield. Does that put them in the driving seat for the title? 

TF: “It does, and it shows what they're capable of. They messed around for the majority of the match, then suddenly secured a bonus point and nearly snatched a win. It just shows how powerful they are.”

Q: What game plan should England deploy against France? Scotland used a multi-faceted approach with incredible aerial dominance.

TF: “I think England can cope with the aerial side of things, but it’s that multi-faceted approach we want to see. England's lineout has been hit-and-miss, the scrum hasn't been quite right, and the nuts and bolts haven't worked as expected. They are massive underdogs.

I watch these England players week in, week out. They do these things just as well as Scotland and other teams do. It would be highly frustrating if England don't take risks in a match where they have nothing to lose. If they don't, you have to ask what is fundamentally wrong within the organization.” 

Q: Ireland are still in the hunt after being written off as too old. How important has the focus on Jack Crowley been? 

TF: “There was always going to be a reaction from Ireland. They have absolute quality, even if they are a bit older. I think they still have a sequence of four or five massive games in them for a World Cup run because they possess the knowledge, experience, and physicality.

Crowley has invigorated Ireland, or at least been part of a rejuvenated team. He's definitely secured that starting spot. If you challenge those older players, they will react. Andy Farrell is smart enough to know when to push an older team and when to back off.

The big question was who would step into Sexton's shoes at 10. Ireland haven’t changed the way they play; everything is still dictated by the fly-half. If the World Cup started tomorrow, they would still be strong challengers.” 

Q: Is the Irish scrum a slight cause for concern?

TF: “That's the one issue, isn't it? But if you look across the tournament, everyone’s scrum has struggled at times; there's been no real dominance from anyone. Still, it will be a concern for Ireland considering the prowess they once had there.” 

Q: How do you see the Ireland vs. Scotland game going, with both in with a title shout?

TF: “It couldn't be set up better. Scotland haven't won the championship since it was the Five Nations, and Gregor Townsend has never beaten Ireland. That is hugely motivational.

Ireland are the likely winners, but Scotland have put themselves in with a real shout and will go in believing they can beat anyone. They are playing for Gregor; he has a great rapport with the players. Even when he and Finn Russell fell out over playing styles, they found a balance that accommodated them both.” 

Q: With Gregor Townsend linked to Newcastle, would his style appeal to the hierarchy there?

TF: “Him taking over Newcastle long-term would be hugely beneficial for them. I know what success means to that club, and historically, they’ve always had a strong connection with Scotland, particularly with players from the Borders. Great Scottish players like Gary Armstrong were crucial to Newcastle's infrastructure. If Gregor were to go, that Scottish connection would be vital.” 

Q: Can you see green shoots for Wales? 

TF: “It sounds terrible to say, but they're getting "less worse" - and I mean that nicely! There are five or six players who have now been properly exposed to Test rugby, around whom they can build for the future.

Fundamentally, there are green shoots, and they have enough players to start rebuilding. You want a competitive Six Nations where every team is in contention, and Wales are slowly getting there. They are learning lessons, gaining experience, and starting to find ways to challenge.” 

Q: As a fellow fly-half, what did you make of Paolo Garbisi helping Italy see out the game in Rome? 

TF: “It certainly helps having Tommaso Menoncello on your shoulder! Garbisi still hits a wobbly kick or two, which always makes me a bit nervous. The ball doesn't always fly beautifully out of his hands or off the tee, but he got it over the line. He controlled the game really well, and he is only going to get better.”

Q: Can Italy win the Six Nations by the end of the decade?

TF: “I’d love to say yes, but it’s a massive stretch. What they need is continuity in the quality of players coming through. They've always had five or six good players, but now they're getting closer to 11 or 12, which is really positive. Beating teams like England will only boost engagement and keep that forward surge going.” 

Q: Your final Six Nations table prediction?

TF: “France will win it; then Scotland, Ireland, Italy, England, and Wales.”