Johnny Herbert Interview: McLaren Should Let Norris and Piastri Race

Exclusive with Johnny Herbert: McLaren have got to let their drivers fight to the finish, the momentum is with Lando as the hunter and Oscar is showing signs of cracking, but if Max wins it’ll be the greatest comeback in F1 history. Featured image courtesy of Sky Sports.

Speaking exclusively to BettingLounge.co.uk Johnny Herbert gives his thoughts on the drama of this year’s drivers’ championship. 

Herbert who raced alongside the likes of Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello, says McLaren need to let their drivers prove who is the best and a worthy champion, and they shouldn’t let either indulge in the dark arts in pursuit of individual glory. 

And he believes that only Christian Horner can sort out Ferrari and attract the right people to restore the team’s fading glory.

Q: It's all kicking off at McLaren it seems, Norris and Piastri colliding on turn three, Piastri saying it was not fair, suggesting Norris is favoured by the team. Is he right? Does he have a point? 

JH: “I'm surprised. I don't think there was anything wrong with what Lando did. Yes, there was a little bit of rubbing each other, but that's racing. And I think Oscar is very aware that's racing because in Monza when they were told to switch, I think he said,’ That’s not racing.’ 

“And he was absolutely right on that one, because that's how racing happens sometimes. Sometimes you have those bad pit stops and that's just part and parcel of it. 

“In Singapore that's a part and parcel of racing and you've got to race hard. We know Max will race hard, Senna and all the greats of the sport raced hard. 

“To win and to get yourself in a situation to win a championship sometimes you've got to be tough. 

“Lando has been criticised in the past of maybe not being tough enough. 

“That was a good piece of racing. To be honest, the guy that put himself in that position was Piastri himself, because he got close to Max which ran him a little bit wide, and he lost a bit of momentum, which allowed Lando to go down the inside but then round the outside and on the inside of turn three. 

“Okay they touched, he had a little bit of a wiggle; he touched Max as well. But that's what it's all about, that's what I want to see, and I think that's what the fans want to see.

“That's exactly what I would expect a racing driver of the calibre of Oscar and Lando and Max, to do. But for him to come over to the radio and say, well, that's not a team thing, and basically give me the place back, was bizarre. 

“They're using the papaya rules to try and benefit themselves. I’m really glad the stewards didn't get involved, and the team didn't get involved. 

“It was right for Lando and wrong for Piastri to be so uptight about it in the moment and then annoyed with the situation later on.” 

Q: What does all this tell you about Piastri’s state of mind? 

JH: “We're seeing those little, tiny pressure cracks from Oscar from all his comments. The cool Oscar Piastri that everyone was talking about at the beginning of the season is not there. 

“The pressure's building and when that pressure pot builds in a championship battle, it's the one who has that stronger mentality to try and get rid of that negative Singapore result for Oscar but then have the positivity going into the next race. 

“It wasn't the perfect result for Lando, but he was ahead of Oscar. It's come down to 22 points. So, he's piling the pressure on Oscar, but he's doing a great job as well. He's showing his speed once again and they're both very, close anyway. 

“This is really where they all show their inner strengths and mental strengths as well. 

“The key to this is McLaren letting them race because they won the Constructors’ for a second year running which was very impressive, now it's letting their drivers go.” 

Q: Do you think Piastri's got a point when he intimates that they favour Lando or is he seeing demons that don't exist?

JH: “I didn't agree with what happened in Monza. As I said, long pit stops happen. It happened once again, we saw in Singapore with Oscar. 

“Favouring? No. That was what Oscar mentioned after Monza. We all know as drivers that that is part of racing. They get stuck behind traffic sometimes. 

“McLaren try to be as fair as they possibly can. Sometimes it's too ‘teamy teamy’. 

“I don't like that because, when you're in the cockpit of the car, you are on your own. You are there to race for yourself. 

“There is an element where that selfishness has to be part of your toolset to win the races but fundamentally win that world championship. 

“This may be Oscar and Lando's only chance of winning the world championship in the next couple of years.

“The team's got to let them do it. But they've got to play all the games that they possibly can; clean games not driving someone off into the wall, but play the games where they out-psych, out-race, and win it purely due to their talent. 

“So let them race.” 

Q: What happens next then in the title race between them? Is it open war? 

JH: “The race is on for that Drivers' Championship, and they've got to let the drivers show us why they will be the world champion at the end of the year. 

“McLaren need to support both, but they need to give them freedom to race. That’s what Zak Brown has said they're free to race. I hope that is going to be the case for the rest of the championship and the six races coming our way.” 

Q: How heated can it get, and can you compare this rivalry with something from 30 years ago in your era was it, Prost v Senna? 

JH: “It's showing signs that the relationship that they've had is slightly changing. 

“Oscar has always been the one regarded as the mentally stronger. But those little things that have started coming from him are creating negativity. He’s got to get rid of all that negative stuff. 

“He does do that very well but when the pressure builds, it's a very, very different situation. But then you go to Lando, who was probably unfairly criticized for making more mistakes. But there's been a twist. And the lovely twist. 

“We know how nice Lando is. Maybe he was too nice. But now we're seeing that sharp edginess to him as well, which is what he needed. 

“And he's bringing it at the absolutely perfect time as well. 

“It's really good to see that he it seems he's finally got himself in the position that he needs to where he's hopefully going to dictate his destiny.” 

Q: It just shows you can't be you can't be friends to win the Drivers' Championship. There's too much at stake isn’t there? 

JH: “That was the friendliness that Landau had that he seems to have jettisoned. “The rivalry is going to very strong. 

“We’ve seen it with Prost and Senna, we've seen it with Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill, Damon and Jacques Villeneuve. 

“The Senna-Prost one is always the one that stands out.

“I don't feel either one of them has that really dark side where they will quite literally drive the other driver into the wall. I don't see them going to that extreme. But I think they will push the boundaries. 

“And there’s nothing wrong with pushing the boundaries. Squeezing them? I don't have a problem with that. Having a little bit of a rub, as we saw with Oscar and Lando in Singapore? I don't personally have a problem with that either. 

“That's what the whole game is. You have to race very, very hard. We've seen it with Max. Does Max get overly criticised for doing what he does? Everybody respects what he does. 

“There will be that extra edge that might have to come into play. I hope it's not dirty. “I don't see that they've got that edge, but you never, never know! 

“One of them might come out with that. And if it goes one way, I'd probably say that's potentially more Oscar.” 

Q: Out of Norris, Piastri and Max, who do you think benefited most from the result in Singapore? 

JH: “I suppose the one who benefited in many respects is Lando. He's the one who's got closer to Oscar. 

“Max has won the last two on a fast track. Singapore is a little bit more technical, 90 degree corners, a track that probably hasn't been the best for Red Bull historically. 

“But they did show that once again they had the pace. 

“Max again just showed that he's not out of it at the moment. And because this battle's going on with Oscar and Lando, there's a potential for points to be taken away from them, which happened in Singapore because Max took points off the two McLaren drivers. 

“Lando came out of it the best because he’s only 22 points behind. But you can't rule out Max. It was a tough race for Max, but he got the job done in difficult situations.” 

Q: Do you think the momentum is with Lando now? 

JH: “You do feel he has raised his game. It is shifting that way. Lando seems to have developed that little bit extra compared to Oscar. 

“He's the chaser and it's much easier being a chaser than someone who's trying to hang on. That side's going to be challenging.” 

Q: There were a host of violations in Singapore. Lewis given obviously a five-second penalty for basically racing without brakes, according to Alonso, who went absolutely bonkers. He said Lewis racing with no brakes was dangerous. Does he have a point?

JH: “He does. It was probably the right thing to do to give Lewis that penalty because there was a bit of cutting of certain corners, so he didn't have to brake. He got his just desserts. 

“The stewards made the right call. Fernando was definitely making sure the stewards were aware of his anger. But I think it was quite clear at the end of the day that liberties were being taken for Lewis to get to the end of the race. 

“You can't take those liberties, you can't cheat to that degree. Very Fernando, getting on his high horse, shouting and screaming! 

“We all expect that from Fernando, that competitiveness from that very first race when he came into Formula One all those years ago.” 

Q: It was a great weekend for Fernando him and he’s saying he’s not finished yet isn’t he? 

JH: “He's not. He's still able to produce some fantastic races. You've got Singapore, very hot and humid, a very tricky track, but you get the best from Fernando, once again. So, he's absolutely right.” 

Q: It was a pretty impressive performance from Red Bull given it's a track that they've never really enjoyed. Is the car proving itself now and what do you think they've done to improve the situation. And can Max actually get there do you think? 

JH: “Can you rule him out? Realistically he's probably not really got the chance if the other two just keep on racing as they have been. 

“It will be probably having a little bit of luck. And that luck is if the other two take the points away from each other and then give them to Max. That’s his biggest chance of doing it. 

“But you can’t rule him out. He seems to be very comfortable with the car once again. The balance of the car definitely is shifting in a positive way for him. The harmony that he seems to have with the car at the moment is just what he's needed it to be.”

Q: What’s prompted the Red Bull turnaround? 

JH: “A lot of that is because Red Bull are listening a more to what Max is saying. 

“Whatever was going on before with the simulator drivers doing their simulation back in the factory in Milton Keynes wasn't working out for Max. So there has definitely been a change. 

“They are applying more of what Max is saying. That that does seem to be putting them in a good place. 

“You can’t ignore the change in leadership either with Laurent Mekies replacing Christian Horner. He really seems to have created a nice harmony within the team.

“The relationship between him and Max is much closer than it was between Max and Horner who has that running battle with Jos which created so much negative energy. 

“The whole situation has changed, and it's been a very positive thing as we've seen in last couple of races. It's not 100 % certain that they're going to be competitive at every single race, but recent performances have shown that that car is going to be a major threat and it's going to be taking points away from those two McLarens and that's only going to add more pressure to McLarens and to the drivers at the same time. 

“They had the dominant most competitive car but that twist in Red Bull’s fortunes has now started to come into play and unfortunately for Lando and Oscar and McLaren, the twist has come to the fastest driver on the grid. 

“You know he's going to be a real threat whatever race they go to. It's probably the worst scenario for McLaren to have.” 

Q: Max is 63 points behind. If he was to manage it and win, would that be the greatest ever for him, to come from so far in arrears? 

JH: “It would be remarkable given where they were. I think it would be one of the greatest Formula One comebacks because it was something that was not even really being thought of. It was all done and dusted apparently. A Papaya 1-2, full stop. 

“If anybody on that grid at the moment, anybody was able to do it, it would be Max.” 

Q: What does he have to do to just keep racing and sowing seeds of doubt in McLaren’s head? 

JH: “The seed has already been sewn over the last five years or so! 

“Everybody knows that whenever you're in a battle with Max on the racetrack, you know probably you're going to lose. He's got this aura that he's created and the aura that he has created is not going to shy away from it in any way. He's just going to use that to the maximum. But he's not even thinking about that. 

“It's all the other drivers that are thinking about that. It's all the other teams. All he can do now, and I think with the positivity of Singapore, he’ll be thinking outside the box. How do I get how some of that Mercedes from Singapore in my car? 

“And that is going to be the strength of Max within Red Bull to put themselves in the position they're in, but to better that at the same time. He will push and push and push. He's very calm in life generally now. 

“He's in very comfortable place. He just seems to be able to brush any negativity away. When he has to step it up, he's able to step it up. He expects the lead to step it up at the same time.”

Q: If he continues eating into this lead and getting closer and closer, almost to the point that he could be in the position to win the title, can you see either the McLaren drivers or McLaren trying to do something to stop Max? 

JH: “The first thing McLaren has got to do is to stop making the pit stop mistakes that they're doing at the moment. You remember a couple of years ago, it was world records stops, but for whatever reason, the pit stops have gone a little bit awry when they were the best. 

“They're a little bit fragile, I suppose, just because we are clearly seeing those mistakes happen. And Red Bull are going to try and capitalise on that. So, when it's a very difficult situation of the undercut, for example, coming into play maybe down the line, it's forcing that pressure onto McLaren and this is where the team harmony is probably favouring Max and Red Bull because of the relationship that he's got with his team. 

“McLaren have had a few issues with the pit stop. Now, on top of that, they've got to manage their drivers. It's different pressure that comes into play. Some factors they have created for themselves with the Papaya rules. 

“Toto Wolff mentioned it after Monza, that McLaren are only going to create a bigger issue potentially down the line. If it comes to Team Orders and which driver will be chosen, it's the wrong situation to be in. 

“So, to release pressure, let the drivers get on with it. I've never wanted a team to dictate the outcome of the championship. That's what you've got to leave to the drivers. They're not just coming out of the karting of F3. 

“They are the cream of racing drivers. They have a skill that even I don't fully understand how they do what they do in these incredibly fast cars that have in the modern age. 

“One easy way of releasing pressure is let them race and one of them will achieve that championship.” 

Q: George Russell had a brilliant weekend. It's fantastic for him. Surely, he must have the upper hand now in any negotiations? What more does he have to do to get what he wants? 

JH: “He had achieved enough before Singapore. Now it should be a slam dunk for Mercedes, Toto and George who once again showed that special ability that he does have. 

“It’s not as if he consistently has the best car. But when it is in that window, George delivers. 

“That shows a fantastic strength that I think he will be able to take anywhere in the F1 paddock if he doesn’t get a deal that he wants from Mercedes. 

“Whatever team he goes to, he's got this inner confidence. Some people don't like it on the outside because he's overly confident. I think people see it as arrogance.

“But it's not. It's just his way of expressing himself. Max does it differently. Max is very flippant with some of the comments when he's asked a question by the media sometimes. That's his way of dealing with it. But he does the job. 

“He doesn’t muck up races, He’s under pressure in the F1 pressure cooker and he delivers. So, it would be foolish if Mercedes didn’t give him his new long term deal. He deserves it. 

“And they haven't got another choice, put it that way.” 

Q: Given the positive noises about Mercedes next year and their power unit, do you think this is setting up a George versus Max title challenge next year? 

JH: “Potentially. Mercedes are going to be at the sharp end. They are probably going to be the team to beat, the car to have underneath you. 

“That’s where he's positioned himself in a very, very good place. It's not as if he's just fallen into Merecedes and the stars have just aligned. 

“He's earned it. He's worked hard to be able to get himself in this position. George has shown that he's exceptional. And that means he'll be able to drag more out of the car and he'll be the leader of that team. And I hope he does because I like what I see, this really controlled, raw ability to shine.” 

Q: A Max v George battle next year would be something to behold, wouldn't it? 

JH: “It would! They've already had a feisty relationship. Again, that’s part of the other drivers stand up to Max now. They are not overawed by him. 

“The respect that they had has slightly changed. They won’t stand for anything now. But that's brilliant because Max has created that because of his own pure skill set. 

“George has always had this very competitive nature. 

“I always said that when he used to come into an F1 paddock he was like a peacock. He walked into the paddock, and all his feathers are all sort of plumed up. 

“It's a very, very confident walk that he's got. And I think that's starting to come into play when he's up against Max with the games that they have to play as a racing driver. That is where George has continued to grow from the very first time, I saw him with those peacock feathers when he was doing Formula 2.” 

Q: Max seems to be slightly in a league of his own, but George is on a par with Piastri and Lando now in that top echelon, isn't he? 

JH: “The gap between Max and the rest has shrunk a bit. The others like Lando, George and Oscar have improved. Max always came in with this unbelievable natural talent and made an incredible impact straight away.

“I think Lando and George were probably not seen in the same light as Max when they first came in. But they've got better and better and are still improving. Whereas Max is still improving but at a slower rate. 

“It’s great for us as fans to see that Max is not going to be running away with it. 

“He's probably aware of that and he can see that the other drivers around him are closer. The three tenths that he used to have, over the rest of the field, has disappeared. That's because the other drivers have upped their game. 

“Max’s domination has motivated everyone else to step up.” 

Q: Someone who isn't winning is Hamilton and Ferrari. What's the ongoing story there? Their season just seems to be nose diving, doesn’t it? 

JH: “Like anything, you need to be able to attract the right personnel to be able to give you a chance of having the fastest car. 

“I am sure there was a push to try and get Adrian Newey to join and maybe there should have been a bigger push for that to happen. 

“I like Fred Vasseur a lot, but maybe you need to get someone who's been able to create, a winning formula. And that potentially points to Christian Horner.” 

Q: He’s supposed to be talking to everyone in the paddock now that he is a free agent from next year having settled with Red Bull. Is Ferrari really an option? 

JH: “The prime one has to be Ferrari. They're the ones that have, all the ingredients they need. They just haven't been able to put them together. They've got the drivers so there's no argument on that front. They have probably overcome a lot of those mistakes, pit stop mistakes, strategy mistakes that they used to make. 

“But the pure raw pace of the car is not there. So, you need someone but hey still haven't been able to attract the people that they need to be able to produce the car that is good on track. 

“Adrian left McLaren and went to Red Bull where he was given the freedom by Christian. He created the environment in which Newey was able to breathe and flourish. 

“Once you’ve got Adrian breathing freely and easily, you get the best out of him. 

“And that's what Ferrari haven't quite been able to achieve yet. They haven't got that one person, I who is that leader. You need the management to be able to attract that right person and then give them that freedom to do what they want. 

“I know Fred signed a new contract recently, but if it really starts poorly again next year, and they’re still in the same position as they have been for the last couple of years, then something will have to be done,”

Q: Would Aston Martin not be an option for Horner? Or would his feud with Jos Verstappen stop that from happening if Max went there? 

JH: “We know potentially there is a chance that Max will switch somewhere for 2027 if he feels that it's a better place to be. Next year is going to be a very critical year. 

“Max’s comment that it's down to Red Bull to give him what he needs to stay in F1 suggests, from what I read into it, that if they can’t then he won’t be in F1. 

“I hope I didn’t read into that the wrong way because I don't want him to leave F1. 

If he does want to leave Red Bull, I still want him to go somewhere else in F1 and one of those potentials is Aston Martin because of that Adrian link. 

“But it would be great to have Ferrari fighting at the top of the sport again. 

“They haven't had that something for too many years, almost 20 years since Kimi Raikonnen won the drivers’ title. It’s been far too long.” 

Q: What do you see the future is for Yuki's Tsunoda now? No-one's even talking about him anymore. 

JH: “It still hasn't quite clicked for Yuki, whatever you say. Was it close to Singapore? Yes. Was that just the track? Probably yes. 

“But it's still not happened in the way that all of us would think, he’s actually raised a bar. That hasn't really happened. It’s better but it hasn't created enough because nobody's talking about him. 

“The guy people are talking about is Hadjar. It was his first time there. And he produces the goods again. There's still a lot of talk about what he's achieved with RB. And there's a potential obviously for that move to Red Bull to replace Tsunoda. I'd hope they'd give him another year, because every time they drag someone in who probably hasn't quite had enough experience into the big team, it always goes terribly wrong. 

“So, I think they need to rethink their strategy to give Hadjar a little bit more time to blossom and develop and get himself mentally prepared. When you're in an RB, I would imagine it's the same as some of the smaller teams, it's a very different environment. Expectations are completely different. They're ramped up a thousand percent when you get into a big team. 

“Hadjar is growing so well in his first season. He told Alonso not to be grumpy in Singapore! 

“He's got respect inside the team, and also with Marko and Red Bull. He's done all the right things, but he still has time before he is put into that pressure cooker.” 

Q: Austin is next stop. Your thoughts? Does it suit McLaren more than Red Bull?

JH: “At Austin you’ve got these high-speed corners, so the big change in direction corners after turn four, five, six and seven. They’re very demanding. Then we've got a few of the latter parts of the circuit where there's some 90 degrees, there's also some long, long right handers as well. So, the balance that we have probably seen from McLaren should suit them. 

“But at the same time, I think the Red Bull is going to be very suited to that as well. The way that the circuit layout is and if, what I keep hearing when I go on board with Max and that Red Bull, it could be pretty dynamite for them going there. 

“The harmony that Max has with the car is very much an Austin thing. It’s a very rhythmic track. So, Red Bull might easily be a thorn in the side of McLaren again.”